I find your lack of DOCTYPE disturbing

Posted by Jim Ray on Thursday, November 15, 2007 6:02 PM PT

So, it turns out that more than a few of you are aware of the command+U key combination in your browser (for the non-geeks in the house, that’s a common keyboard shortcut for View Source). And a few of you have even noticed that, despite our efforts to write the best code possible, the HTML markup still leaves much to be desired. For instance, the site doesn’t validate with the W3C and, a far greater sin, doesn’t even bother to declare a DOCTYPE. How, some have asked, can we say that we care about standards when we are missing these fundamental pieces?

The short answer is that msnbc.com is eleven years old. We have thousands of legacy pages that date back to the time when Netscape 2 was the dominant browser in the marketplace. We’re working on solutions to get this content into our new, more flexible system, but if we’d waited to port everything over, we’d be declaring a DOCTYPE of HTML 6.0.

The longer answer is a bit more complicated. We could, of course, just leave legacy pages without a DOCTYPE and carry on, boldly into the future, but some pages (like stories) still use components that don’t expect a DOCTYPE and break the page rather horribly. We’re also having to reconfigure our CMS to support DOCTYPES properly - a task that’s actually more difficult than writing a line of markup at the top of the page. For instance, to be XHTML compliant, we have several dozen legacy bugs to fix to be considered valid XML. I’m personally lobbying for HTML 5, so, Safari 3 users, get ready.

Then there’s the classic problem of design and development disconnection. The site architecture actually supports having a DOCTYPE right now - I could pick one from a dropdown, hit republish and make the world a better place. In fact, when I first fired up TextMate to write the first draft of HTML that would eventually become the new site, I specifically chose HTML 4.01 Transitional. Why? Because it makes my job easier. Using a DOCTYPE makes bad browsers behave, at least a little bit. Not using a DOCTYPE has made life harder for all of us working on the site markup because it means we have to work around the various quirks of that perpetual thorn in my… side, Internet Explorer. But we ended up not designing with a DOCTYPE because we weren’t sure that feature was going to make the release and had to assume the worst in order to make our deadline. Declaring a DOCTYPE right now would actually break the site in some browsers because of these workarounds. Believe me when I say, I would’ve slept a lot more, and probably have at least a little bit more hair on my head, if <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd"> appeared at the top of our homepage.

Like anyone else who’s eyes haven’t glazed over by reading this far down, I’m a geek. I know it’s easy to fire off a quick blog post and become righteously indignant about these sorts of things (guilty). Again, I ask for your patience and understanding. We know what needs to be done, we actually do this stuff for a living (some of us for fun, as masochistic as that sounds). We’re working hard to deliver the very best site possible, inside and out, I promise.

Comments

Nice post, and the explanation sounds sufficient enough for me. Atleast you are aknowledging everything. What's better is I actually learned alot by reading this post. I never took into consideration how long a site has been alive, and how old info still is stuck in the archive and is ready and willing to be unearthed again when someone wants to dig up the past.
More informantive to me than anything I've ever read.

And I know zip, zero, totally uninformed.

We'll count entirely on you succeeding.
You sir, are a nerd. But I await your updates! Thanks for the (very) detailed explanation.
I can live without the DOCTYPE declaration.  But, as someone who MUST make the text larger in order to be able to read your site (can YOU read the teeny, tiny type that the site uses by default?), I must say that your new design leaves a lot to be desired.  Try increasing the text size just a little, then view your Community page.  Your new design quickly falls apart.

Is this a W3C-compliant issue?  You tell me.  The previous design was passable.  This one, frankly, sucks.  But, thanks for the opportunity to express my opinion.
I like the fact you will admit to everything, and that you are going to fix whatever you think is still misssing. The explanation helps alot. Thanks.
Jim,

Thanks for taking the time to comment on my blog post. Sorry I implied you were 'Microsoft', I seemed to have touched a nerve there. That being said, Microsoft *does* own MSNBC.com, and it's all the same in the boardroom. The DNS for msnbc.com does point to Redmond, after all.

I commend you and the team for working with such legacy software - I've been there, although not to your team's extent, and it can be a real headache. Working around old code and programming isn't fun. However, I must wonder about the stability of any system which requires extensive work to throw in a HTML transitional doctype. If you guys are dealing with 11 year old legacy code, msnbc needs to overhaul that CMS next. Like, immediately, because there's no reason for it if it's causing your team to develop in quirks mode.

Good luck with this project going forward, I do hope everything works out.
Thanks for the explanation. Good one.
I run a small nonprofit with a website (www.HVAS.org) Hudson Valley Arts and Science, inc. and we have site links going back 10 years to when we started. Some use HTML from that time and look true to that era. Our philosphy is that it's better to have the archival info available, even if it looks bad, than not. I hope you feel the same way about your archival pages. I don't care how they look but I value their accessibility.  thanks.
Don't know about all you geeks/nerds but personally I like the fact that it seems to render much better in FireFox than in the past.
Thanks for the blog entry and the response :-) I agree with the others who have said that we don't care how old pages look if the content actually displays (and is accessible), but I certainly don't envy you and your 11 years of archives!
I don't know if my issue is due to being on a Mac, but the sidebar menus are way too sensitive--it's impossible to move my cursor across them w/o the popup menus exploding, no matter how fast I move my cursor. To get to articles in the center of the page, I have to navigate around the sidebar menus like I'm in a maze.
I appreciate how old the information is and I appreciate access to it.  Thanks for the info.  I didn't know I needed to know it.

I liked the old design better, it was more clearly laid out and you could use the side navbar to find everything.

There is differentiation between the different areas on the main webpage.
They bleed into each other making it harder to look at or find anything

Thanks for the Star Wars reference though :D


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